In this episode of ’74PODCAST Series “Nasıl Bir Yarın?” Director of Sabancı University Sakıp Sabancı Museum Dr. Nazan Ölçer and Publisher Cem Erciyes talk about the expectations regarding the changing art world due to pandemic, new models, as well as changing norms of this current period. Below, you can read the English translation of the transcription of this episode which is edited and condensed for clarity.
This episode is in Turkish.
“Visiting a real exhibition, entering through its ceremonial gate, being delighted, being informed and feeling the expansion of growth inside as you leave… These are all beautiful feelings and I guess this is the truth about art.” – Dr. Nazan Ölçer
Narrator: Welcome to ISTANBUL’74’s Podcast series titled ‘Nasıl Bir Yarın?’.In this ’74 Podcast series, we will be exploring together the foresight and expectations of multi-disciplinary creative minds and leaders towards the post-pandemic world outcomes.
Cem Erciyes: Welcome to Istanbul 74’s ‘Nasıl Bir Yarın?’ podcast series.I’m Cem Erciyes and today we will talk about art. What’s art going to be like tomorrow? What’s it like today? Maybe even how our life is going to be like in the future with Nazan Ölçer. Do we have to introduce Dr. Nazan Ölçer? I don’t think so, but to sum up, she was the Head of Turkish and Islamic Arts Museum between 1978 to 2003. Since 2003 she is the Director of Sabancı University Sakıp Sabancı Museum, she is a well-known person in the art world. Also, she has been working in the field of museology for many years and succeed in many projects. As for myself, I’ve been working as a journalist for many years and directed Arts & Culture in Radikal Newspaper. Nowadays I’m working as a Director of Publications at Doğan Publications. Mrs. Nazan Ölçer, hello again.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Hello
Cem Erciyes: We are all at our homes in quarantine because of the pandemic and a bit sore. I don’t know if any of you are enjoying this process. Maybe some of us are more productive at home, but sadly I’m not one of them. How are you? How do you spend your days? How was your adaptation process?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Cem as much as I like to stay at home this process was hard for me too. At first, I was concerned about getting to know the house again, I did a major cleaning and tidying. I guess everyone did the same thing during quarantine. Then I started cooking and exploring new recipes more than I’ve ever done. I’ve tried to explore the things I’ve forgot but they all came back to me. I don’t know if it was related to the pandemic or anything else, I began to force myself to write or to do something, anything at all. I must confess, maybe it’s because of this rapidly spreading virus or something psychological, I tried to concentrate on my work, but it was difficult for me.
Cem Erciyes: It’s widespread, I mean people thought that they could read everything, do many projects, thought about novels, books in quarantine days but that’s not how it works. Because we were restless, we couldn’t concentrate.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: We are watching the news and following social media to keep up with the world news and I’m talking with my colleagues, I’m a part of different professional societies in culture world, mostly in Europe but also in China and Japan as well. At the moment we are competing with them. Everyday I’m seeing news about their art broadcasts, certain exhibitions and auctions or they’re asking for my advice. In other words, these things took a lot of time but there are also good sides in this; I noticed that everyone is having the same problems during this pandemic and we are not alone, a virtual hug feels good even if it’s from a distance.
Cem Erciyes: It’s a different way of sharing right? A new platform for all of your trials and tribulations.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Exactly. It’s nice to see that you are not alone. I took parts in some occupational groups; they’re still going on. For example; International Museum Community. Besides them, there are issues that I’ve been interested in before, again professionally. Clearly, I can tell you that we are in a major concussion as museums.
Cem Erciyes: What about your colleagues at Sakıp Sabancı Museum? What are they doing? How did you take the outbreak there? What kind of work method did you adopt and when will you get back together?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Now everyone works from home, there are some chances that this technique has given us. We are coming together via Zoom or from other tools. Personally, I’m working more than usual times. Sometimes we come together with my colleagues at the museum or our homes with social distancing and hygiene of course. Mostly we talk about the projects that we started online and the projects we did before.
Cem Erciyes: I want to talk about that too… I saw details and photos about Picasso exhibitions. Before coming to that could you please tell me few details about Abramović exhibition? You brought the biggest live performance artist to Turkey, once again you opened an assertive exhibition. However, a short time after the opening you came across the virus. What do you feel about that?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Yes, to be honest it was an assertive exhibition. It wasn’t only Marina’s work there was also live performances in her method. Apart from the exhibition the most important part was to see her method. Because in the previous exhibition you couldn’t see any of that. Both Turkish and foreigner artists participated so it was an exciting project. Unfortunately, we only saw this for a month, maybe even less. Before the curfew borders closed, flights were cancelled and all of Marina’s team, performance artists and curator were foreigner. So that closed our deal. But most of them stayed in Turkey until the last minute eventually they all had to leave. Thankfully they did because it was their last chance. It was a surrealistic thing and we prepared everything according to the new orders. There was a section where a lot of hands were involved that part was exposed to hand washing and daily disinfection. Later that day my colleague in Rome told me that they are closing the Rafael exhibition and it has been only few days since the opening. After hearing that I understood that we weren’t alone in this.
Cem Erciyes: These projects came together with a lot of labor so it’s really disappointing.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: We reached to a point from our meeting with the board and institute, in autumn these things hopefully will slow down. If everything goes right, we will reopen the exhibition. Therefore, all of our billboards remain the “We will meet again soon” quote. In other words, it’s a hope for our visitors.
Cem Erciyes: Are you sure that it’s the right answer to give considering the world that we are living in right now? I’m sure that you’ve considered turning Abramovich exhibition into virtual tour. That way audience can still enjoy the exhibition.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: They didn’t prefer it.
Cem Erciyes: Abramović or the Museum?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Yes, in fact we didn’t prefer it too. Because it would be unfair to the visitors who saw the exhibition. There was a certain way to visit; only a limited amount of people could come in and spend limited time inside… Besides during summer, after Eid Istanbul is an uninhabited place. When autumn comes art world will reopen its doors to new exciting projects thus, we will begin to work. But this doesn’t mean that we won’t do anything during summer, of course we will. We will do plenty of activities in our garden. I’m not going to tell you much, but we are planning to use museums constant collection.
Cem Erciyes: It will also be suitable for this new way of life, the way the Corona pushes us. It’s also good to use the garden, fresh air.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Yes, exactly. After lockdown it gives you happiness and joy to be outside. We will gather our visitors with art in many fields.
Cem Erciyes: I asked about Abramović because you can find many of the museums, exhibitions, concerts online now.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: We also do the same thing but with our old projects for the young generation. Like our Picasso exhibition back in 2005- 2006, it was a huge success. We started with Picasso and then we are going to move on to Dali and Rodin. Both of them will be online soon… I think those who have seen the exhibition, will watch it again with great pleasure. Both us and other museums had brought great artists. So that’s not a new thing for Turkey all of the visitors are watching with a more sophisticated way.
Cem Erciyes: I also watched it tastefully. I even bought an audio guide this time, I didn’t know that Müşfik Kenter vocalized it.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Visitors loved the exhibition back then, so they were thrilled to see it online. That’s why there were 45 thousand viewers on the first week. I have to say that we could never reach this number with Picasso. The exhibition at the museum had 254.000 visitors in total.
Cem Erciyes: Honestly, I don’t think that this will be the future of art, to view online. Atmosphere is really important inside museums and theatres, to see the pieces in real life also sharing the same environment with other interested people and many other factors. Of course, you know it better than me, all of these factors are beside the point when viewing online. How are the reactions to online visiting so far? Do you think that this will be the future of art?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Now it’s like cinema, in the years when movie theaters were empty, everyone experienced the convenience and comfort of watching TV at home. Cinema audiences suddenly went to such a different path. It is not real cinema audiences, but people who go to the cinema in their spare time have such a comfort but of course nothing is the pleasure of seeing a movie for the first time by sharing it with others on the big screen and cinema screen. Now it is even more in art. Of course, all these techniques provide us with a great opportunity and ease. This is a great chance, especially in the lockdown. We all use this, I use it, I watch it, I enter concerts, I look at them … But the pleasure of a huge symphony orchestra with tiny headphones on a tiny screen is not a concert. Likewise, it is a different feeling to face the original work, to look face to face, to stand in front of it and to experience its pleasure with the work of a great artist. Let’s not forget the truth of the business on the other side. They will always exist, no matter how technology develops and offers us luck, commemoration of a real exhibition, commemoration of the entrance, excursion and pleasure like a ceremony, learning, feeling that it grew up when it comes out, this is all good feelings and the fact of art.
Cem Erciyes: Picasso exhibition, of course, actually seemed genuinely a starting point for Turkey. Turkey, the first time the world’s museums, which determines the world art scene that has been hosted one of the blockbuster exhibitions. Then you have organized many other exhibitions at Sabancı Museum. As you just said, such exhibitions were held in other museums. But world museology has been on the agenda for a very long time with this blockbuster storm. It was even what this Marc Guggenheim call turned into a bigger dimension, a chain. We call it blockbuster because the museum understanding that attracts many, hundreds of thousands of visitors, where people are queuing in front of the museum, and trying to reach as much as possible works inside, will probably lose its validity for the next few years. What kind of transformation will take place in the world of museology?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: There will be changes in many ways. All of the museums will deal with a big crisis. Let me start from abroad, if we start with the examples there, we may understand our own situation better. Of course, without forgetting that the scale is different, there are larger scales. Whether it is the world’s leading museums, museums in Europe, major institutions in America, Japan too … all of these have great losses. The biggest losses from the visitor are the biggest concern of the museums there. Big losses are not like that, 200 million-500 million. I am talking about such money.
Cem Erciyes: Is this the amount they lost during lockdown or in the future?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: That’s more different. I’m talking more about the current losses. For example, the annual budget loss of the Metropolitan Museum is disastrous. Based on New York, the Whitney Museum, MoMA, and many other larger museums … The ones on the west coast, the museums in San Francisco, … All of these have the common distress because they have entrance coins and huge number of visitors. After this, of course, we see that they had a lot of concussion. They are tightening their belts according to the new period. The situation of museums in Europe is different. Many of them are because they are governed by the state, dependent on the state. They are waiting for a help from the Arts Council, nearly 500 million pounds of money support is in question. Germany is of course a federal state. Each federal state has a separate attitude, but the general attitude is that; It was mentioned that great supports are provided not only for their museums but also for art galleries, this is the first time in Germany, every federal state has its own minister of culture. Germany has no Minister of Culture. The exception is the State Ministry in Berlin under the Prime Ministry, responsible for general culture. We have heard that a great support will be provided with their efforts, now all this of course changes the parameter of work. For one thing, there is not such a big visitor coming to the next exhibitions. Health institutions demand at least one visitor to stay in 15 square meters. There was no social distance before. Sometimes people were waiting back to back in very large tails, coming in. Now, a completely new system will be introduced. For once, the architecture of all the box office officers and the box office are changing. Before they come into contact with people, there are huge physical barriers. Continuous disinfection and control are at stake, and masked. It is at least three or five times a day to be disinfected. The missions and professional concerns of museums until now turn into a health cleaning and a hospital rigor. Everyone thinks that this brings an additional cost, and the change of architectural structures also brings a separate expense. Because in many museums, this transformation is currently being done. All of these are, of course, exhibitions made with huge amounts of money, called blockbusters, made with huge costs, big insurance, big transportation costs. If you are promoting this right, why is the promotion done? It is made for many people to come. But we will not be able to bring a lot of people, we will not be able to insert them. No one will be able to tolerate much more than the queue he has been waiting for so far, by putting great distances between them. People don’t have that much time either. For this reason, we always say that the success of an exhibition is not just a number, we also say that the quality of the exhibition is important, but now the number actually turns its value to another place.
Cem Erciyes: So, the number doesn’t matter.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Exactly. Yes, the norms are changing right now. People who will experience the uneasiness of a visit where everyone wears gloves and masks. Let me give an example from the fairs; all major art fairs, such as Art Basel, Frieze, Maastricht, and fairs, where everybody found each other, and that the big collectors were doing business months ago … Many of these have stopped suddenly. For one thing, borders are closed. Many of the collectors, most of the art lovers are middle-aged wealthy people and they come here to add new things to their art collections. Those people now have the fear of getting on the plane, the fear of entering the crowds, and as a matter of fact, they also reported that they could not come. Art Basel is postponed to September; it is not even clear whether it will happen in September. All this is questioned now. In other words, if art lovers cannot go to this fair … Galleries also take place in those fairs, rent a stand, how will they go, what will they go for? Does it make sense after they can’t sell, show, or go after all this art-loving audience? They postponed fairs and everything to autumn. Will it fall in the middle of so many things in the fall? In other words, their problems are different, our problems are different … As well as museums, galleries and even artists … Imagine that art galleries have not been able to do anything for months. There are artists in Germany, what are they doing? It is the first time that a conservation program in Germany, directed to the state artists and art galleries, is outside the museums. So, I think German taxpayers also oppose this. But such a state aid will be made. Now it is in England. In France, Macron is newer, despite all the criticism he hasn’t done anything. Macron also said that he would seriously support and assist art institutions. Now I’m coming to Turkey. You know, a while ago İKSV has published a new report, ‘state of the art institutions in Turkey as’. These topics I told you generally showed, did, and said an opinion about the world. But there is also a call to the state. I do not know what the state will do, to the cultural institutions of the state at such a difficult time … The Ministry of Tourism and Culture is under the same roof. In other words, until the tourism was going well until now, a share has always been allocated to the cultural sector. Now tourism is also in a distress because of all this epidemic. So, I think we will slow down the tempo a little, we will settle for the materials we have, by valuing our own collections.
Cem Erciyes: Collection exhibitions will become prominent right?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Yes, we will do new exhibitions and projects.
Cem Erciyes: In museums, in every field where big organizations of art take place, some plans are made, and connections are established years ago. All of a sudden, everything was turned upside down, what will be the linked works and exhibition projects? For example, is there such a thing that affects you?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Of course, there is. There was an exhibition we were considering for the Design Biennial in the fall, we will not be able to do it. We will do it later; I hope it will happen. Some of our projects belonged to later years. The projects of the following years have another chance to be realized. Like 2021, 2022 … I hope the second wave of this outbreak does not come and the third wave. Everyone follows the rules, and a vaccine comes out to control the outbreak. Because I just mentioned the fairs, for example; that many people and famous collectors say, ‘When the vaccine is found, I can think about traveling.’ A very prominent person says I do not think of going anywhere without the vaccine. Now, it is thought that this vaccine will reach the end of the year. So, I do not like to draw a pessimistic picture for the future, but we will settle for a little while with what we have. Thanks again, we have a Marina Abramović exhibition. We still have the chance to show it because, the pieces are here, and everything is here. We had two projects for the future, which we prepared it may be easier to make them. We will give up blockbuster for a while. Maybe 1-2 years later, we will be shaken again in such a way and rise from our ashes. But it is useful to be realistic we need to pay some attention to the health of both employees and visitors. We should be able to put some projects on the shelf for a while. No one should doubt that we will continue with the same strength and enthusiasm.
Cem Erciyes: What kind of change does the artists’ productions have? As we said that we will return to the collection in the museum and step back from very ambitious projects of the Blockbuster type. Maybe the artists will do that too? Maybe they will start to work with smaller works, maybe because collectors have disappeared, retreated, and galleries have been closed, will they go to a system where they have adapted? What do you think?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: It’s all possible. In such periods, there is a chance to discover some forgotten things at hand. Museums and people … Works that are waiting for a long time in the warehouses can come to the agenda, come back with another formula, another comment or, different institutions of art can collaborate to cover the works of art with literature, music and performing arts. There are such brilliant times, something enthusiastically created from the branch of every art. Let’s take a look at the Russian avant-garde, for example. In many fields, there are times when something is produced enthusiastically. They can look back at them and take an example. So sometimes a sleep period is not bad either. To rest a little, to dream, to dream of a time that is pregnant with new things.
Cem Erciyes: Exactly, I think that this is just an interlude.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Exactly.
Cem Erciyes: What will happen after the corona? Everyone who thinks about it is very worried. There are those who say that a new and completely different world will begin. Everything will change … But I think it is not. Because humanity has survived many other traumas. So larger outbreaks in which millions of people suddenly died. Huge world wars in which millions of people were killed by each other …
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Yes, let’s think about wars. In the World War II, Petersburg, formerly Leningrad, the German Army almost approached the distance from where the cannon sounds were heard. The city was under occupation and siege, and there were also concerts of underground bunkers. So, this is what keeps people alive. They produced writers, and composers were composing. So, we can reproduce the example of Russia. Production was carried out even when the entire World War ravaged Europe, the world. So is the First World War. So, all these wars are not for daunting, but for restarting production of something new. Many art movements were born after the First World War. Expressionism was born in big cities. Big cities are now the stage of art, people on the streets, ordinary people, war has suffered, … So, we will look at the world in another way. Maybe we will be more cautious, we will settle for less. But art will take its way there, and we will create different things. Sometimes such periods are not necessary for man to create new things, of course, but since he came, he should look from the good side. That’s what I thought.
Cem Erciyes: Okay, Mrs. Nazan, I want to talk about one last thing. If we go to a more general level, what kind of a period will there be for humanity? In other words, this epidemic has come to light. The sick side of man was obvious with nature, nature and each other. But we did not want to compromise on our own comfort, thinking that this would not cost us a great deal. But suddenly, with a massive epidemic, people all over the world became global. As you just said, thinking about it will give a new breath to art, but will it add a new breath to the common human dream? What do you think about this?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: I hope environmental problems will be watched more carefully from now on. This is an incredible lesson on how we should not consume the environment this much. In a sense, it has passed to the whole world, even going to countries that have closed their ears to this business, pushing even politicians, even to politicians who have cut off because there is no such problem. But we should not really consume our environment anymore … During 2-3 months of corona quarantine the world has recovered, they say that the hole in space has closed a little bit, in Venice finally the canals started to flow in a clear and not mud, big cities animals started to come and wander from the forest areas around. All this also shows that a wounded nature can actually heal. Even I live in the city, but when I open the window, a better, cleaner air comes. I see an air that has passed through a filter. Traffic is less, planes are going and going less, right?
Cem Erciyes: Sure. It is already said. Everyone talks about it. Humanity took a two-month break. Nature herself was able to gather. This break should not be extended, but as you said, we may have to move to a more peaceful and friendly lifestyle with nature, and it would be good for all of us. I think it was a nice conversation. Now we can finish. If you want to thank and listen to those who listen to us, what do you say?
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Yes, you really touched on many issues. There have been many problems. Thank you so much. I tried to answer as much as I could and as far as I know. I hope we come together at a new exhibition after this work is over and we forget about them.
Cem Erciyes: Hopefully, thank you Mrs. Nazan.
Dr. Nazan Ölçer: Have a nice day.